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An Englishman a Frenchman and a Greek woman discuss civil disobedience in the wake of French and Greek riots and strikes. Are we going to be seeing a re-emergence of political extremism?
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Play Episode #3
Dear listeners of this podcast, please be aware as inaccurate pieces of information are disseminated by the “Greek woman: Karolina Tagaris”, who firstly introduces herself followed by the slogan “VIVA anarchism”. Unfortunately, this statement is in Greek and therefore not understood by English speaking listeners.
It is obvious that her statements on the “Greek case” are heavily influenced by explicit connection and affiliation to anarchism, therefore they should be perceived accordingly.
She mentioned she doesn’t want to come back to Greece after she finishes her studies abroad. I think Greece has already a lot of “fake anarchists” manipulated and supported mainly by left wind parties; we certainly do no need more. Karolina please stay where you are.
Most of the comments and statements on the “Greek case” are disappointedly biased. Perhaps she should take a break from her studies and return back to Greece to see how really things are.
Stergios, great to hear from you.
The show is a platform for the opinions of people from all over Europe, the guests are vetted for the quality of their thought rather than the content of their opinions which they are, of course, free to express.
It’s great to hear you take issue with what was said, could you be more specific as to what exactly you think these “inaccurate pieces of information” are? And give us a picture that you feel more accurately represents the Greek situation.
I have directed Karolina to your comment here and hopefully she will respond.
Dear Stergios,
Thanks for your remarks. Obviously this is a big debate that the ‘comments section’ of a blog won’t do justice to.
I’d just like to make three points: First, as you know, the expresssion I used — which you’ve incorrectly translated to Viva Anarchism — is meant tongue in cheek.
Second, I’m not a whiny lefty and I’m not an anarchist. I don’t have anything against well-fucntioning governments. I don’t, however, toletare governments and politicians who are too involved in patronage spending, scandals (Zahopoulos, Vatopedi, Siemens)and corruption to sort out pensions, taxes, health care and education. Obviously you think all those issues have been handled well. Fair enough.
Finally, I have lived in Greece all my life. I don’t need to take a break from anything to see how things really are.
Dear Christopher and Carolina,
Thank you for your comments. Sorry, Carolina, but your remark in greek “Viva anarchism” doesn’t sound like “not meant to be taken seriously”. In my eyes it didn’t seem like a joke or an ironic statement. It seems as if you really back up anarchism. And as you can understand greek IS my mother tongue. Perhaps it was a lapsus linguae, which hides what you really wanted to say. ooops…
In any case, if you really wanna make a joke, next time be more accurate!!! Because now all your arguments are simply not take seriously or “not meant to be taken seriously”.
I am sure you know better than me that Mediterranean hot tempered people would love to exaggerate. This is our modus vivendi. Pity you contribution to that podcast is full of overstatements. We all need 15 min of publicity; however you don’t have the right to describe a situation in a country based on biased personal perceptions. You need to present data to back up your hyperboles or they end up being an empty signifier.
Siemens is a pan-european scandal…as you might know..not only greek.
Zahopoulos and Vatopedi scandals are serious cases-made in Greece, however at the same time greek media took advantage of them to achieve personal goals. Having worked for almost a decade for greek media, I know this game very well. Please filter what you hear from greek and other national media and in general make the distinction between “real and medial reality”.
I stop here as I will need to talk for hours. I m sure you are smart enough not let yourself become a media victim, μυρικάζοντας κακοχωνεμένες ειδήσεις!!!
Dear Stergios,
I’m sorry you missed the irony. For the last time, I am not anarchist so stop throwing labels around.
But since I am clearly disseminating anarchist propaganda, I’d like to direct your attention — and that of the listeners — to a concise summary of what’s happened: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustrialConglomerates/idUSLC2650520080813
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that you think 1) If a scandal happens in other countries too it’s not so important and 2) If the media exaggerates something it means it never happened. I fail to see how the media’s coverage (which incidentally I have researched) is relevant.
Finally, I don’t see how being an anarchist makes one’s opinion less valid than that of a loyalist. The scandals, we both agree, are real. As far as I’m aware, I’m entitled to think of them what I want.
Please don’t underestimate the intelligence of the listeners.
Both your assumption “1)” and “2)” are wrong and there is no need to explain why you are jumping the conclusions for one more time!!!
RE “Finally, I don’t see how being an anarchist makes one’s opinion less valid than that of a loyalist.” You see, you are hiding a newly born anarchist deep inside…perhaps with group therapy and few Molotov bombs in your hands you might let it out!!!! However, living in UK (world renowned police state) I am sure you will be imprisoned soon or perhaps shot in London underground by Scotland Yard. Remember the Brazilian guy? May I remind you that these policemen are free now! Or is it easier to through these bombs in Athens city centre or even kill Alex?
RE “As far as I’m aware, I’m entitled to think of them what I want.” Opinions are like assholes, everyone has got one!!!
RE “Please don’t underestimate the intelligence of the listeners.” It is not the intelligence of the listeners that I underestimate, but the speaker’s…
Stergios, I don’t get the impression you’re trying to engage in a constructive debate any more. You’re not answering the points put to you and you’re being unduly insulting and confrontational.
ok I leave it there…sorry if I crossed the lines, but me and few other fellow media researches thought we needed to reply to this outrageous podcast (I am referring to the greek case)
Finally, as Heraclitus said: “don’t listen to me as an individual! Listen rather to what I have to say”…meaning do not pay attention to the form of the comment and the way it is expressed, but focus on the content itself.
Everyone has an opinion as all have an ass hole as Stergios very eloquently stated.
Perceiving and understanding a political situation is mostly based on ones knowledge of the situation (which one gets from information his accumulated from various means)and how one wishes to use THIS knowledge.So we have the key word which is CHOISE. Now, when one lacks reliable sources which provide the information, that takes us to a different level of understanding a situation. The key word here is MISLED. So if what Stergios says is right (and I have NO reason to doubt it) about the games the Media play, how the **** is one supposed to form a clear view on things without getting their knickers in a twist? Which brings us to our next word wich is APATHY.
……and so here we are today in a country
where every overated egopath feels he has the power to do as he pleases, secure in the knowledge that nothing will be done cause the people leading it are just as corrupt as they are and will never touch the subject. In the mean time the biggest persentage of the country falls under the category of APATHY an ilness that has been successfuly and effortlessly been passed on as an heirloom through our DNA, leaving us with NO interest in the political field as all we see is repetitions of Sirnames and unsuccessful management.
Passion is a feeling that will get an idea going, but its also a feeling which resembles a balloon. It will burst or start to loose air….
What I suggest to all u people, seeing u have the countries best interest at heart, is to give a new, more civilised approach and a better leadership to all young people that want to see this country go somewhere but dont know where to start. So take ur knowledge and youthfulness an bright unbiased ideas, add a little passion if thats what u need to get u started, sprinkle alot of team work and I think ur recipie will b a success!
JUST START! Be inspired and insperational!
I admire your optimism Louise. Many of the Greeks I meet in London feel the mountain is just too high to climb. Perhaps that’s why they’re in London.
There is a danger, which they do acknowledge, that if the country’s best and brightest leave to get their education and never return the situation will only get worse.
There is alot of truth in that! (second part)
The Scotish expedition team to reach the top of Mount Everest said:”Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius,power and magic in it” Perhaps those Greeks should stay in London! Perhaps, on the other hand, they should take this knowledge, which they feel privileged to have, and make use of it.If of course they feel its adequate enough to put in to use and take on a challenge as big as Greece.Is there nobody willing to climb?
Seems we all want the benefits of change without any of the downsides, and without covering any of the cost. that is childish - and unfortunately we’re all in that frame of mind right now
Dear Luise,
RE: “In the mean time the biggest percentage of the country falls under the category of APATHY”
Political apathy in Greece? You must be kidding or simply you don’t really know how things are there. There are a lot of accusations or even criticism against the present day Greek society (as there are for every society), however Greeks are one of the most politicised nations across Europe. And it is not only because of Aristotle’s heritage. These are stupid stereotypes. Just have a look at the percentage of the population who vote for the national and European Elections. At the same time Greek Universities and in general young people are unfortunately over-politicised. Apart from the latest social tension, in Athens you can see almost every day a riot against the war in Iraq, the bombing of Serbia (in the past), Nato’s violent “humanitarian” fake interventions or even against the unacceptable role of USA regarding the climate change and its military goals etc etc. As a recent inhabitant of UK, the only time I see people on the streets is to do shopping, shopping, shopping and oh yes shopping. There are few exceptions of course, but only exceptions, not the norm.
Dear David,
RE: “if the country’s best and brightest leave to get their education and never return the situation will only get worse.”
Unfortunately, dear David, again there is a misunderstanding here. Who told you that “the country’s best and brightest” go abroad to study? The truth is that Greek pupils with the lowest grades and the worst results end up studying abroad (this is a fact) or simply kids from really wealthy families, who do no even take the national exams and simply do “A Levels” to go to UK. Another reason which explains students mobility is the fact that these “low grades pupils” end up in bad quality British universities (and there are a lot of them as you know) where they finish their studies very easily. Then, they return back home showing off, even if they have graduated from the University of Huddersfield (a crapy one as you may know). UK for the majority of Greek students is the “supermarket of degrees”: you pay, you get it. There are few exceptions of course, but only exceptions, not the norm.
Ps: RE: “Many of the Greeks I meet in London…” Oops, there is a methodological problem here. Your research is not valid. The sample collection is not representative, on the contrary is misleading. Greeks in London (or in general members of national diasporas) live in there own world, in the “third space”, where luck of information, ignorance, feelings of hate and love, rejection and homesickness are dominant, blocking the objective perception of the reality.
Stergious,
Greeks I meet in London are the only experience I have of the situation and I offer their experience as purely anecdotal. Two highly intelligent and well educated Greeks have told me that they felt obliged to travel abroad to get their education, and that they won’t be returning because of corruption, a sluggish economy and a lack of prospects - even though it breaks their hearts to leave the country they are adamant that they still love.
pity you have such a limited experience of what it means to be Greek and what is Greece in general.Time hominem unius libri!!!!
Greece isn’t the only book. You’re keen to shoot down the honestly held views of others, but in your eagerness to do so you come off as closed-minded.
I am simply reporting what I am told and presenting it as such, take it or leave it, but do not discount it because it doesn’t fit with your particular experience. Address it and add your voice to the debate, but don’t try to be the only voice.
As far as I’m concerned there’s no need for snide comments like “Time hominem unius libri!!!!”. Why are you trying to make this personal? It isn’t.
I thought I shouldn’t get involved in this ridiculous debate that is basically just about throwing personal insults around. But I wanted to clear something out.
Where exactly are you getting your facts, Stergios, that only stupid Greeks study abroad?
Out of curiosity, have you lived or worked anywhere besides Greece or the UK in order to be able to judge?
I’m 24, I’ve lived in four different countries (Greece, Sudan, Turkey and the UK) and have worked in two of those. I think perhaps you should start basing your arguments on facts instead of childish generalations.
If you don’t like the podcast, tell us what Greece is really like.
Are you saying there is no 700 euro generation? Are you saying universities don’t shut down for a year while students and professors strike? Are you saying the prime minister himself didn’t say recently that he just can’t be botherd to be PM anymore? Are you sending it isnt run on patronage spending?
And Louise, I appreciate your comments, but perhaps you should consider that we are not all martyrs. Not everyone wants to live in a country where there is no meritocracy, no tranparency and where your efforts are not rewarded. Personally, I’m not here to change the world, I want to develop to my fullest potential and I can’t do it under those circumstances. If you can, then well done and more power to ya.
RE: “Two highly intelligent and well educated Greeks have told me..”
Well, well, two ex-lectures at British Universities, very close friends of mine, now living permanently in Athens down town told me that they left UK because of the lack of human relationships in Britain, the alienation of everyday people, the racial discrimination against Pakistani and Indian British citizens, the weather of course and few more reasons (I won’t mention them as they might sound too offensive). Shall I believe them or my sample is not representative?
Thank you for the “close minded” comment. I could only suggest you should attend a class: “Introduction to social science methodology”. You might then understand when we are eligible to generalise or even speak on behalf of the subjects of our sample.
Blogging is destined to die, if everyone can speak about anything without presenting any kind of data or a scientific analysis. And this is exactly what the “Greek woman” and you were doing with this podcast. I am sure nobody needs that.
RE: the personal tone of my comments. Well, you need to ask your Greek friends in London. They might tell you – apart from all these bitchy comments you mentioned above – that this is the Greek way: passionate, personal, hot tempered…yes…human!!!
Dear Karolina,
Your latest comments show TOTAL ignorance of the situation in Greece. As I am on my way to Athens on a business trip I won’t reply to that now. No time. But I will when I ll be back to UK, this Thursday.
Ignorance is bliss!!!!
Stergios,
Are you available on Monday 6th April evening for a special one-off Brit-Greek-Greek podcast with me and Karolina, here in central London?
If either you, (karolina) or Stergios have any suggestions on how to improve a situation, it would get the listeners’ total attention.
The continuation of throwing comments at each other, and stating facts on the sublime obvious, is making this blog an endless scroll- down of your intoxication of your tenuous own verbosity. If this is your interpretation of contructive debate, then perhaps you should pass the baton onto someone who would make it all the more realistic and worthwhile. (not suggesting myself).
Stating facts and disagreeing on them is perfectly healthy,when all u do is this, then its boring.
I find u both stimulating and passionate in pursuing your beliefs, but please keep in mind that this blog is read by people all over Europe (and maybe the world) who haven’t experienced your opinions/experiences and leaves them a confusing aftertaste. Whatever u people decide to do or pursue, to reach your personal goals and acknowledgements, please take into consideration the people here in Greece who are trying the best they know how to improve the situation (without being labeled Martyrs). Denigrating the morale of an self inflicted Nation wont help the situation but in contrary make u part of this deterioration.
Property,like liberty,though protected under the Constitution from destruction, is not immune from regulation essential for the common good. What the regulation shall be, every generation must work out for itself. Nor is the concept of the general welfare static. Needs that were narrow or parochial a century ago may be interwoven in our day with the well-being of the Nation. What is critical or urgent changes with the times.
Good luck!
Dear Stergios,
I’m not Greek, but I feel concerned as European when you write that Siemens is a pan-European scandal, because as Italian (we have a lot of scandals) we did not have something like this (thanks God!:).
So, don’t try to minimize the problem. I see that you know the rules of rhetoric and you try to dismantle the one used by the others. But remember, even minimizing problems is one of these old tricks.
And don’t try to “not talk about the main topics”. Explain the facts! You’ve just written that Karolina Tagaris is wrong, she has a bad perception of Greece. That’s another rule of political rhetoric. You wrote something about data and social facts, but where are yours???
Anyway Greece, like Italy (and now like Bulgaria and Romania) is one of the most corrupted European country. I understand the feelings of young people like Karolina and the others David mentionned have, but I even want to tell them to try to change the situation, moreover because they’ve probably learned so many things abroad that their experiences can be very useful in their country. Good luck!
Nice article, I just ran across it going through Connotea. Im a bit late though, I mean months late since you posted lol.
Congratulations post, not often can I find such quality. Do you write any forums with similar content?